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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1371
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Posted - 2012.06.21 07:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Nick Bete wrote:Why do you hive mind geniuses of the goonies care? Let everyone play the damned game as they see fit. We don't care if you move to nullsec or not. We do care, however, that actually living in nullsec (i.e. not just logging in your nullsec PvP main for fleets, but actually living there) is simply not worth the extra effort and risk compared to making ISK with a hisec l4 alt. Also answer the other question I asked.
It's also not worth the extra effort and risk compared to making ISK with an hi sec L3 alt. And even L2.
What are you going, leave L1 and that's it?
Not for a second your mind is hit by the mere thought that maybe the answer is not to make hi sec a sh!t but to make 0.0 a pleasant place to be. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1371
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Posted - 2012.06.21 07:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Xorv wrote:Flex Carter wrote: I'm just trying to get a handle on this drastic change of gameplay you guys want to enforce upon others... Who's enforcing gameplay on whom? A High Sec that provides both security in the form of CONCORD/Crimewatch and high value PvE makes it the preferable place to make ISK for just about everyone, not because that's the gameplay that everyone wants, but because it's the most efficient means in terms or risk and effort vs reward of making ISK in what is from the foundation up a competitive game. To balance High sec with the rest of the game it either needs to have it's risk factor upped substantially or have it's PvE gutted.
I will leave this here:
If you completely removed Hi sec, 0.0 is still not worth paying a sub for.
So go ahead, TRY it. Remove hi sec for 3 months then print the subscription numbers.
I will give you 5B if you win this bet.
Also, by being arrogant prats against fellow players who chose to live away from your empty far west you gain ZERO support by them for what would be totally worthwhile requests to have CCP improve 0.0. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1372
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Posted - 2012.06.21 07:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I will leave this here:
If you completely removed Hi sec, 0.0 is still not worth paying a sub for... If this - coming from someone who posted how much they enjoyed their time in 0.0 until their corp fell apart - isn't a /thread for reworking and improving 0.0 I don't know what could be.
Exactly. 0.0 can be awesome. It IS awesome. But only if certain factors align both on the player mindset and on the corp / alliance he would join. It's too rare to get these factors aligned, most end up enduring a 0.0 duress instead of the glory and fame they were sold on the "butterfly effect" video. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1372
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Posted - 2012.06.21 08:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I will leave this here:
If you completely removed Hi sec, 0.0 is still not worth paying a sub for. I guess that means we'll have to double the isk payouts and have CCP give nullsec both stations with 10x as many factory lines, research/copy/invention lines and a capital mining ship which sucks down 10x as much roids as a hulk would.
You guess only a part of the issue.
Let's take an example of something that worked: WHs. They are arguably as unforgiving (living at a POS and perma-nightmare logistics anyone?) as 0.0 but for some reason they marry very well a certain amount of players. WHs do what's written on the tin, nothing less.
0.0 is not just about "ISK".
0.0 is the Australia, hi sec is the USA and China (low sec is Somalia ).
Australia has loads of riches, prominent material and precious metals. They make a good income at sending their stuff to the "big consumers".
So what does Australia do for the USA, that 0.0 does not do for hi sec?
0.0 minerals / moon goo (and once, drone poo) = Australia. So that part seems to work. Evidently 0.0 < Australia for something else.
By improving this something else you get 0.0 fixed. Not by "buffing this, buffing that". The *concept* of 0.0 has to be buffed.
0.0 needs to evolve. Needs to go from Far West or even National Prison towards "Worldwide mainstay of resources production".
Anything short of that, won't help 0.0.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Also, by being arrogant prats against fellow players who chose to live away from your empty far west you gain ZERO support by them for what would be totally worthwhile requests to have CCP improve 0.0. You mean like the guy who kept claiming that jumpbridges were a power projection tool, despite everyone who live in nullsec, and have lived in nullsec for the last ... uh I dunno 2-3 years, and been involved in countless wars in that time, telling him he's wrong and he should look at JFs and various other JD-capable ship for that?[/quote]
That guy is like miners who create GD threads about how unfair somebody popped their untanked Hulk. Just ignore and they fade at page 10 in 1 day. Easiest way to deal with them.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1373
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Posted - 2012.06.21 08:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Also, Goons usually do a lot of things right, but not this time.
The concept they apply is to "abuse" of bad / wrong / bugged / abandoned game mechanics till CCP wakes up and changes them. Same for who invented Dec Shield, exactly as a "punch-in-da-face" approach to make CCP fix those ancient clusterfracks. Same for Technetium and much else.
But for 0.0, for some reason, they did not get it. They should "abuse" 0.0 till CCP changes it, not to try "aggress" hi sec. Making hi sec different or worse won't save 0.0. All you'll get is like moving L5 in low sec: the feature mostly got abandoned and nothing improved over there. 1) Which mechanics? 2) If CCP fixes it, then isn't that a positive thing in the end?
1) I point you to the last years of Goons activity for the improvement of EvE (even if what for them is improvement may have varying degrees of popularity off other players).
2) Depends on "fix". A simplicistic "nerf'em hard", sadly, is not enough. You can't make 2 bads and cause the end result to be good.
Just look at incursions. They were nerfed bad. Not hard, but bad. If they were nerfed well, then people would still do them.
Incursion good points are the social / community aspect + ISK aspect. Evidently the social / community aspect was not engineered well enough else it'd not crumble so easy as motivator, once the ISK aspect has been nerfed. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1373
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Posted - 2012.06.21 08:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Actually, I misread you, so I'll try again. You say that we abuse something until CCP fixes it. Nullsec has been in a ****** state for anyone who doesn't want to invade others, and even that became pretty ****** after dominion. So, how do we go about actually abusing that so CCP'll fix it?
We can't really invade somewhere, because then CCP'll just think "ah, they're invading eachother again, the mechanic is working perfectly.". We can't force industry to work out there, because CCP'll just think "ah, they're making stuff out there again, the mechanic is working perfectly.". In fact, all we can do (that I can think of) is to do what we're doing, i.e. ship almost everything in from hisec and creating a huge NAP going from lower fountain to upper tenal. It doesn't seem to be entirely working, must we take the rest of the universe, too?
Well, short of announcing both TEST and GS to completely quit the game for X months I don't think anything else would work.
You can pop Hulks and they get buffed. You can pop hi sec freigthers and they'll get boosted or boomerang has been nerfed and you know how it goes.
You have to step down as a player and step up as accountant. CCP WANTS the hi sec subs. Only way to make them feel the pain is to make them aware YOUR subs are not a guarantee. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1373
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Posted - 2012.06.21 08:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:The Honourable Yellow Star of the Defense of Jarshitsan "Northern Coalition"-grade Ribbon of the Anti-Sansha Forces
Believe it or not, those stupid gadgets move people to do stuff. Also see how shiny perks work in RL as well. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1373
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Posted - 2012.06.21 08:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: When you say that people would still do incursions, you realise a lot of people doing incursions were from null sec, low sec and wormholes right? So surely if your aim is to give those "living" in whs, low sec and null sec incentive to actually start living in their respective regions then a drop in activity was inevitable?
Thank you for answering to yourself.
Of course a part of incursioneers come / came from those places and exactly because the social aspect was neglected vs the ISK aspect.
What if an hi sec incursion provided ISK but a null incursion provided shiny BPCs that can only come from there?
ISK is one of the EvE currencies and CCP has wasted way too much time introducing ISK aspects everywhere instead of introducing other and subtler and *local unique* currencies.
0.0 is the "raw producer region"? Cool then have stuff that ONLY comes from there and not just moon goo but day by day stuff that everybody in 0.0 can harvest. So hi sec produces ISK, you produce good stuff that is worth that ISK, ISK comes to you (and not just the moon overlords).
This would also have an important side effect. For the first time, due to additional income not funneled down from the high spheres, even sov members could be able to raise their head and become more selective on which corp they join.
Corps would compete a bit more (no more "you are our servants, be glad we even accepted you") on the services they provide and the average 0.0 Joe could entertrain in those side activities. If they also create structures to support side activities and reinforce manufacturing etc. then 0.0 could become much more worthwhile and fun to go there, even if you are not a pure pew pew lazors guy. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1373
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Posted - 2012.06.21 09:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:You have to step down as a player and step up as accountant. CCP WANTS the hi sec subs. Only way to make them feel the pain is to make them aware YOUR subs are not a guarantee either. CCP wants subs period. Since they have no exit survey they can't even begin to calculate how many people have quit out of boredom, that might not have done had the game gone down a different path. I'm not going to pointlessly claim "I know a lot of people that...", but it is worth highlighting that when people quit CCP honestly very rarely have any idea why.
They do or did have that survey, I compliled it for every alt of mine when I quit 1 year ago. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1373
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Posted - 2012.06.21 09:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Xorv wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Edit: some examples of engineered content: make incursion communities get "badges" of some kind for their outstanding effort defending the empire[...] Badges? Seriously? Incursions have never been about defending Empire, there would have to be some actual real threat to everyone in Empire for that to become a reality. Yep, badges. Because the incursion runners were so loyal once it got nerfed down to around L4 levels or thereabouts. :v:
If you can't add money (else a feature becomes overpowered) you add emotional value and social benefits. That's really it. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1373
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Posted - 2012.06.21 09:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: CCP have already stated that they'd like to move high, low and null into generating products unique to those regions.
Stating <> doing and most of all, it's <> doing it well. They need to be kept under close scrutiny because they have this attitude at quickly swiping rubble under the door mat, "get it half done, now forget it and switch to something else".
Simi Kusoni wrote: Are you complaining that the social aspect of null sec was neglected, or the social aspect of incursions? Because it sounds like you're saying the social aspect of WHs and null sec doesn't exist.
I've done both, and I can tell you that there is no social aspect to incursions. Whereas the social aspect was the only reason I ever went out to null sec (I'm a low sec pirate at heart).
And of course people will go where the highest ISK for the lowest risk is, it's necessary in order to remain competitive.
1) I don't complain, I am not the null sec guy who wants people to join them. I have traded both in Jita / Amarr / Dodixie / Rens / Oursulaert / Tash Murkon AND NPC null sec just fine. I am the happiest man on EvE in this regard.
2) "No social aspect" might be a bit harsh and if anything, just reinforced what I said before, that is incursions were meant to incentivize social aspects and ISK and only got well made (too well made) in the ISK aspect.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1373
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Posted - 2012.06.21 09:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Degren wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:eh so where is your alt oh yea in high sec. Earning income for your null sec activities. eh... you don't see the problem here? And thread. Foot/Mouth meet again. That's highsec, bringing you the best isk for the lowest risk.
It's not the best ISK by large. The lowest risk makes it *relatively* reliable and thus seen as best net income.
What people don't realize is that you can't just buff 0.0 or nerf hi sec to "make it fair". After you really factor in the MASSIVE loss and its consequences (i.e. even just getting a replaceemnt in 0.0 for all the mods and rigs is a PAIN) you get by doing the same activity where your ship gets popped you realize that hi sec should reward something stupid like 2M per hour, not just a "nerf". It'd be a total hi sec annihilation and you ALL know CCP are not going to get their game lose a major portion of playerbase for that.
It's why I suggested to implement *different and unique* not *more* (0.0) or *less* (hi sec nerf).
You got to be pragmatic, drawing on the clouds only keeps generating N! threads on GD for nothing. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1374
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Posted - 2012.06.21 10:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:please don't bring incursion social aspect BS up.
Learn to read, not just to see what you see thru your salami slices glasses.
I said they were engineered to have a social aspect plus ISK, and that the former fell short. Not that they were all social and fluffy, because evidently it turned out the social part failed.
Simi Kusoni wrote: If you are suffering "MASSIVE loss" in low sec or 0.0 then you probably belong in high sec anyway, reducing it to 2m an hour would only be necessary if everyone was as bad as you at PvE in low/null. Fortunately we're not (I haven't lost a PvE ship since 2008).
Another who make it personal and of course - wrong. I also have never lost a single L3+ PvE ship in low or nullsec. I had plenty of opportunities to lose them, both when I was in Stain for pirate L4, in Minmatar low sec around Evati and Taff (more L4) and in other places. I also never lost a freighter despite I and other about 6 logistic officers had to haul stuff for the corp for 7 or so low sec jumps every week.
So what? Your non sequitur still remains a non sequitur. Unlike what you seem to be limited at, I can extrapolate more than personal social behavior. I know hundreds of people in all secs, I know how they think and what they do and why.
I make a point for the general playerbase not because *I* lost some ship.
Simi Kusoni wrote: The problem is that in Eve's current state the increase in ISK/hour going from high to low or null is nominal, and what may I ask do high sec players "need" this massive amount of ISK for? Oh, sorry, that's right. Supporting their low and null sec mains.
Once again a brilliant "one size fits all" conclusion. Nope. EvE is larger than your horizon. Looking thru a tight butt hole does not show the whole beauty of EvE.
There's loads of people who purely do missions to get the best mission ships they can. Those ridicolous killmails showing 30B worth of pimpboat killed demostrate they made improving their ship their own, sandbox, end game.
There's loads who make isk to buy BPOs to make stuff. Because they like to make stuff. They like to learn the 1000 tricks to do it better, faster, more efficient.
There's loads who make ISK and buy a Tengu and go low sec to get shiny sites and then go sell their loot. The finding is a reward on itself (for others it's a mere way to get money, EvE caters to both).
There's loads of traders who like me make money as byproduct of enjoying the markets. They spend months learning all the tricks of the trades, the trends, the fundamentals that make items go up or down...
All of those are different and beyond the "Make ISK for your 0.0 main".
Put it in your head: there's less people who have or will ever care to have a 0.0 main than you believe. EvE is bigger and greater and grander than your tunnel vision.
Simi Kusoni wrote: Anyway, CCP can go about it two ways:
1) Fix war dec evasion and NPC corp hauling.
2) Nerf high sec into the ground, making it a genuine newbie zone.
Until one of the above changes are implemented low sec and null sec will remain desolate waste lands, populated only by the odd misguided newbie and the legions of high SP main accounts fighting for no apparent reason funded by their high sec alts.
1) One man disposable corps. Asinine fix circumvented. Next.
2) No, destroying hi sec you'll just get a whole panorama of sh!t, empty space.
Your cure is like a grand statement declaring how making every USA citizen gain 82 dollars a month like in Burundi, will clearly motivate USA citizens to move to Burundi.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1375
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Posted - 2012.06.21 11:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Hisec got any nerfs prior to the incursion nerf? Level 5s moving to low sec? Other than that I can only think of buffs, both to safety and income.
All at separate time points:
2 x L4 mission nerfs before that (I was on first line asking for them BTW as the income was way too good). Removal of certain module drops before that.
Making agents send to more distant systems is also not a buff (I don't remember why they did that, maybe to spread nodes CPU load).
Tax increase is mostly aimed at Jita and the other major hubs so while not being specifically targetted at hi sec, it's where it hits the most.
Some anomalies got their stuff removed (i.e. they had 3 cans now only one is full. Or they had an explodable structure that now drops nothing).
Most missions got their roids either removed or replaced with Veldspar + Scordite + Pyroxeres. This also applied to L3 iirc.
Some missions had random faction spawns, now they either don't have any more or it's a very very rare event. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:ElQuirko wrote:Because nobody will go. I know of quite a few people who'd like to go to nullsec, because they like the idea, but it just isn't worth the risk and effort right now. ElQuirko wrote:People in highsec like the safety of highsec. That is why they are there, and that is why hulkageddon gets so many whines. This will not work, no matter what you do. So why wouldn't making nullsec comparatively much better than hisec (in comparison to risk/reward) make the people I just spoke of take the plunge, or f.ex me take my current hisec L4 runner back into nullsec?
I have some issues understanding this.
When I was in NPC 0.0, I did L4 in 0.0 (doh!). The LP was incredibly better, the pirate BPCs lovely. There was a public channel where people announced if there were incoming neutrals but tbh all it took was to look at local and see if some unknown name came in. Never lost a ship, would get interrupted twice a day tops.
Why is your L4 runner is in hi sec then? Is it you who are totally risk averse, since ratting ships are not welfare subsidized and reimbursed?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
dontbanmebro wrote: And nobody cares about those people.
This is the best way to gain consensus.
dontbanmebro wrote: The target is new players who get stuck.
You cater to the same atrocious people who only did incursions for ISK. You'll get only atrocious people who go 0.0 for the ISK. Get 1 random nerf or anything and they will flock away again.
dontbanmebro wrote: The best part is the hisec forum warriors talking as if this is a "debate". We're telling you what is happening and what is going to continue happening to the game. We've won, you've lost. A general hisec nerf has already started and will continue until it's no longer a trap for new players, but a natural transition into more compelling and retentive parts of the game.
Even if the people trapped in hisec were to unsub, which they won't, it wouldn't matter.
You are making EvE completely like WoW: staged canned zones, where you are MEANT to go from A to B to C.
Your concept of EvE is an abomination of its very nature. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:
It's mostly just a matter of seeing how far CCP are going to roll with the current trend, and how they're going to continue implementing it.
The only trend they managed to achieve from CCP so far, is to ruin Hulkageddon forever as CCP are going to buff mining ships to the begeezus come next expansion.
Bravo! You made it for the casual gankers so now they won't be able to play their games any more. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
dontbanmebro wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:This is the best way to gain consensus. Sorry, who said anything about consensus? That's what I'm telling you, this "debate" is already over. We are now in the implementation stage. I should also add that you are an utterly miserable person who has quit Eve forever in a a rage over ridiculous things, and then returned every time. Your long-winded and semi-coherent self-indulgent rants are absolutely meaningless, and representative of no one but perpetually quitting curmudgeons. I feel bad for people that actually read your posts as if they are something worth considering and responding to.
Speaks the guy who managed to get banned twice. Certainly it was not for the too high quality of posting.
I quit EvE once, and because:
- At the time CCP decided to charge freeware developers that poured in hundreds of hours to make EvE a better game.
- At the time CCP subtracted me 2 months worth of game time and never gave it back.
I came back when I read they removed the first obtuse decision AND a GM reassured me they'll never bork my subscriptions again and they have written notes about me.
Now go on your quality way and let the other forum readers decide who writes good or bad.
Edit:
self owned.
ISD Dosnix wrote:dontbanmebro wrote:Ceptia Cyna wrote:Post with your main first or are you AFFRAID :D
dontbanmebro: Federal Navy Academy [FNA] from 2012.06.18 17:01 to this day
*giggles* They're banned. You can check them out if you want...for whatever reason. Darth Tickles Setrakdark I-Śll contact the Game Masters to check if this is correct or not Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Why is your L4 runner is in hi sec then? Is it you who are totally risk averse, since ratting ships are not welfare subsidized and reimbursed?
Because to some people, making a little isk but being able to do it whenever they please and comfortably (not having to d-scan once) is better than making loads more isk doing the same thing in NPC null but having to face risks and inconveniences
So, I who was in nullsec doing L4 and in other games I post my PvP videos am called names and risk averse, while THEY who are holy are those giving the bad example and keep their alts in hi sec?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
dontbanmebro wrote:
It`s already been explained that true hisec players are absolutely irrelevant. What CCP is concerned with now is hisec as a trap for new players, and a big part of that trap is incredibly lowrisk isk-faucets in hisec. The people who would never leave hisec under any conditions will continue to join the game, grind in ships to get better grinding ships, and then eventually quit. Their Eve lifecycle is utterly meaningless in anything you do.
The low retention players will just stay a lot shorter time once they learn they have all of 10 days to experience your fantastic EvE before all the EvE content they explored is over.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote: Question for you. What makes null sec so much better than high sec?
Corp mates, they were a wonderful bunch. I really regretted when I could not log in but once a week any more and thus felt just like a drain on my mates.
I miss them every day, when they mail me I tell them. And I always miss the drunk FC fleets, the fleets with our FC getting his house on fire (alarm and all) but he stayed to FC.
Epic times.
Ah, what about ISK? Boh, never needed any, we got reimbursed everything even fitted capitals.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.21 13:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lady Zarrina wrote:Look as long as Nullsec spews constant venomous hatred for hi-sec carebears, they will never head out there in the number you desire. They simply are not wanted, except for moving targets.
This is not the problem to making null-sec vibrant. Make null-sec fun for everyone and they will come. Beat them with a stick over and over again, they may just quit. Now I know you elite Eve players in Null will say, fine... get the frak outta here. But just be careful what you wish for.
As I said in several threads since weeks, null sec is entirely player made content.
What impression does the new player get when the see their player made content produces such kind of people and behaviors?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.21 15:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Why is your L4 runner is in hi sec then? Is it you who are totally risk averse, since ratting ships are not welfare subsidized and reimbursed? Let's presume you've got 2 hours a day you can dedicate to moneymaking, and that you're a coward so you choose L4s. You choose a sufficiently usable ship for L4s, and you reliably make, say, 70-80m/day for no effort and no risk. Let's presume you have the same 2 hours a day you can dedicate to moneymaking, and you're not quite the coward, so you choose to make your money in nullsec. You choose a sufficiently usable ship for the most lucrative sanctum, and you try to run them. However, one day you get interrupted by 2-3 roaming gangs, and the next 3-4 days some blackops/bombers gang has decided to camp 4-5 different systems, yours amongst them. The first two days you just don't do anything, the third you start to get impatient because you haven't made much isk this week, and on the fourth you say **** it and run sanctums anyways. And you get popped. And you're now left having to buy a new ship and mods, which may or may not need to be imported from hisec, which may take a day or two to arrange. And after all this is said and done, you're now left with less isk than you started with, whereas the guy who just went for L4s are now +800m. This isn't rocket science.
So what I read there is that me, the "lol hi sec bear" when I was in 0.0 (there's a some days old GD thread with screen shots) I accepted the risk, was not a coward.
On the other side you are one and want to nerf hi sec because you are a coward? That's some powerful argument! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
I don't see an issue: let CCP do what they ask for 3 months. Then we'll see what happens with the subscriptions base and CCP will be able to take their own conclusions. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
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Posted - 2012.06.22 08:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Okay, so they're run, then. I haven't heard any indications from CCP's economist (or anyone at CCP for that matter) that L5s are as problematic as f.ex incursions used to be. If we're going with "economically problematic" the post-Dominion sanctum in every system was about four times as "broken" as incursions at their height. According to CCP's numbers, pre-incursion nerf. Yes, I know, and that's kind of my point. And because L4s are as profitable as they are, they're setting a very high floor level for rewards for no risk, which means that when the risks are nonzero, the rewards have to scale up accordingly, which means that again, we get "economically problematic" rewards in nullsec. But oh well, I'm sure we can just keep on fighting in null and jewing L4s in hisec, it seems to work ~just fine~.
No, L4 used to be like that but the latest nerfs have made "normal missioning for the masses" (i.e. not super-min maxed blitzing) down to 40-50M per hour (using faction fit). You can get to like 70M with 2 battleships but then it's 70M / 2 accounts. You can blitz some missions for more but they are very rare and not in the top played race best basket. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
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Posted - 2012.06.22 14:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:No, L4 used to be like that but the latest nerfs have made "normal missioning for the masses" (i.e. not super-min maxed blitzing) down to 40-50M per hour. You can get to like 70M with 2 battleships but then it's 70M / 2 accounts. You can blitz some missions for more but they are very rare and not in the top played race best basket. Yes, that's 40-50m/hour which is more or less uninterruptible, unlike outside of hisec where it's pretty easy to interrupt.
It's also more or less uninterruptible in 0.0, where if nobody neut shows up (usually the case except a pair of times per day) you can also reap massively greater rewards (459M for an hi sec CNR BPC vs 925M Machariel BPC). And the CNR BPC costs 100k more LP (20% more) and 100M more ISK (100% more).
In sov nullsec it's so viable that people can grind NPCs in capital ships, which are not exactly known for their insane agility and escapism to ganks.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.22 14:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:In sov nullsec it's so viable that people can grind NPCs in capital ships, which are not exactly known for their insane agility and escapism to ganks. And funnily enough, they get caught pretty often, which means the owner has to spend that time grinding up 1b to just get back to where he was before he got ganked, let alone start profiting again. Meanwhile, the L4 guy is steadily printing isk.
You just forget to mention the hypocrital truths:
1) Making that 1B back takes much less.
2) PvP ships are reimbursed anyway, so you don't risk losing any ISK for doing the real risky 0.0 activity. So, you just PvE to make additional cash, not cash desperately needed for PvP like it's usually left to intend.
Getting non PvP ships killed over there is so hard that RMT botters rat there. Getting non PvP ships killed over there is hard enough that some of our most ridicolous kills were people auto-piloting Hulks full of blueprints. Now let me know where in hi sec you can be so stupid to autopilot an Hulk at all and even more, full of blueprints. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: 2) PvP ships are reimbursed anyway, so you don't risk losing any ISK for doing the real risky 0.0 activity...
Not all 0.0 alliances are swimming in tech ISK, just FYI. We get Cynos, Logis, Dictors and Commandships reimbursed, anything else you lose, you pay for it yourself.
I was in a corp with zero tech moons and we had all reimbursed including carriers and dreads. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2012.06.23 08:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Let's presume you've got 2 hours a day you can dedicate to moneymaking, and that you're a coward so you choose L4s. You choose a sufficiently usable ship for L4s, and you reliably make, say, 70-80m/day for no effort and no risk.
Let's presume you don't copy and paste verbatim the same text all over the forums...
You get to earn pirate BPCs that cost 100k LP less and 100M less a piece than in hi sec. You make money way faster or - if you choose a disposable T2 fit ship - you make the same ISK even if you lose regularly these ships.
So in the end, the only answer to your copy paste is what you posted above: "I am a coward...".
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